tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9100523271379006780.post6179783852540004298..comments2024-03-01T19:21:45.981+00:00Comments on ancient malt and ale : Oven mashingSamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06815653967372313451noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9100523271379006780.post-64409684401415742362019-02-10T12:26:49.224+00:002019-02-10T12:26:49.224+00:00Very interesting, Graham - keep up the experimenta...Very interesting, Graham - keep up the experimentation! Martyn Cornellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16843357962176591317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9100523271379006780.post-28195377335831550082019-02-07T12:48:09.103+00:002019-02-07T12:48:09.103+00:00Hi Ozturkhuso. Thanks for that, I had not come ac...Hi Ozturkhuso. Thanks for that, I had not come across tarhana before. Tarhana is a lactic fermentation, I was experimenting to make sugars for an alcoholic fermentation.Graham Dineleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10544510381162295248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9100523271379006780.post-24552212700867402292019-02-07T12:45:42.909+00:002019-02-07T12:45:42.909+00:00Hi Lars, yes you could get spontaneous fermentatio...Hi Lars, yes you could get spontaneous fermentation of cereals given the correct aspergillis, but there is no evidence yet. <br />I think the aspergillis you mention is cultivated on cooked rice, and so must post-date the cultivation and consumption of rice.<br />I think the first seed-gatherers would have noticed the effect of malting on their grains and would have used it many 10s of thousands of years ago, and would<br />have used it in the preparation of their grain. Malted grain is so much nicer to work with and to taste that I think they would have picked up this trick early on when they <br />they first started gathering seeds. <br />I have an alternate hypothesis for the origins of beer, that does not require spontaneous fermentation, but that is for a fruture blog :-).<br />I think most of the ideas that I consider silly, e.g. spontaneous fermentation, brewing beer without malt, comparing the nutritional qualities of beer and bread, etc. all come<br />from Braidwood's bread/beer symposium (1953), and have haunted the academic literature ever since. They were not brewers.<br />Graham Dineleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10544510381162295248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9100523271379006780.post-44046494323102677672019-02-07T12:45:06.811+00:002019-02-07T12:45:06.811+00:00Hi Uli. It's good to hear from you again. We g...Hi Uli. It's good to hear from you again. We give our draff to the neighbours hens, and sometimes get eggs in return.<br />In the video you recomend, they are following a recipe devised by Delwyn Samuel. She is not a brewer and I don't know why she devised such a complex method.<br />The mashing stage was at an oven temperature of 70C, the conditioning temperature was not measured, but was too low.Graham Dineleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10544510381162295248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9100523271379006780.post-63913610592338594972019-02-06T20:28:16.596+00:002019-02-06T20:28:16.596+00:00Still there are lots of mistake I guess. We know t...Still there are lots of mistake I guess. We know that ancient people did al germination and good mashing. Not like oven. Ths hardest point is the hunting yeast. Your article could not solve yeast problem. Its all about Anatolian "tarhana" making. Search it. ozturkhusohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02219542813832588965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9100523271379006780.post-5485486997032185332019-02-06T11:13:09.670+00:002019-02-06T11:13:09.670+00:00Very interesting experiment. I hope you continue t...Very interesting experiment. I hope you continue this, because it would be very interesting to know more about how this works.<br /><br />On the process for beer brewing: it is possible to merge those three steps into one. Sake brewers in Japan and huangjiu brewers in China do it. Farmhouse brewers in Bhutan also do it (brewing from wheat). Martin Thibault visited them and even brewed a replica beer, which I thought was quite nice.<br /><br />Of course, this requires access to a diastatic fungus. Aspergillus oryzae in Japan, several other species on the mainland. The fungus will then do saccharification by making its own enzymes while the yeast operates in parallel.<br /><br />As far as I know nobody has ever done this in Europe (apart from modern sake brewers). My guess is that the necessary fungi don't exist here, but I don't know that for certain.Lars Marius Garsholhttp://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/beer/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9100523271379006780.post-33574389871378118812019-02-06T08:08:49.762+00:002019-02-06T08:08:49.762+00:00Very promising experiment! One of our group once p...Very promising experiment! One of our group once produced draff bread (https://steinzeitbier.wordpress.com/2017/11/03/projekttreffen-am-01-11-17/ ). The idea behind it: there are indications, that the varying beer qualities mentioned in Sumerian and Egyptian writings refer also to a minor beer made from draff. After mashing and lautering the draff might have been baked to a storable staple to be used for brewing a low alcohol beer. Apparently we loose some of the sugars with the discarded draff. In a re-mash that can be washed out and used. Our brewer Ernst did not rely on it and added some sugar, reducing the left over draff more to a malt-taste flavoring. (Actually this is one of the possible ways to produce a low-alcohol beer nowadays.)<br />Concerning the Egyptian beer: I recommend a video by Tasha Marks of AVM Curiosities, Susan Boyle and Michaela Charles <br />https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pleasant+vices<br />They basically brewed following the recipe in the excellent article <br /> Tamang, J.P. & D. Samuel: „Dietary cultures and antiquity of fermented foods and beverages“. Pp. 1-40 in J.P. Tamang & K. Kailasapathy (eds) Fermented foods and beverages of the world. Boca Raton, FL; CRC Press, 2010.<br />Archaeolgical and chemical evidences prove: Those remnants examined show that the Egyptians did NOT brew with bread. They DID malt. Other sources do indicate the usage of some form of bread - your warm dried mash might explain that.<br />Let google-translate do the work: https://steinzeitbier.wordpress.com/2018/06/10/altaegyptisches-bier-nachgebraut/<br />Could you measure the interior temperature of your oven?Uli Bährhttp://steinzeitbier.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com